The reason why they were 65's are:1. Sometimes leaving MS is good. I also agree with the promotion-on-transfer point. It's a question your boss gets asked so it's not a surprise to them. I was let go from Microsoft recently. Join the Levels.fyi community to chat with employees at Microsoft and other tech companies. Mini could you please confirm or deny this. If it isn't, well don't waste everyone's time building the wrong thing.When you think of it this way, you'll anticipate what your manager needs, you'll anticipate what your skip-level needs, and you'll be doing what they need even before they know they need it. Oracle. The point here is that I have more than once seen folks that were very talented and super stars get bumped for someone less talented but more vocal. Do you know why? I might be still employed by Microsoft if I knew he wasnt doing it willingly.One thing I would do different if I could do it again is to not advance levels any faster than I have to. >Apple's about to ship Snow Leopard with no new features. Senior Director Levels at Microsoft 63 (Senior Manager) 64 Principal EM (Principal Director of Engineering) 66 Senior Director (67) GM, Partner (SDE Group Manager) 69 VP (70) Corporate VP (80) Executive VP (81) View 7 More Levels United States No region found, search all locations Greater Seattle Area San Francisco Bay Area View All Data I left eight years after that when I realized that L66 wasn't going to happen for me.The bottom line: If your boss isn't pushing for you, get them on your side or leave the group. It can be a really discouraging time in your career, but if you can get past it youre headed for another amazing growth curve like the one that got you to level 62! Executive Vice President and Chief Human Resources Officer. I am soliciting ideas to reduce cost in this blog. But on balance mgrs at MS get things right a lot more often than they get them wrong or we wouldnt be one of the most highly capitalized companies in the history of biz. If you want to advance and you are not a "favorite underling", your first and most important job is this: figure out how to become a "favorite underling". right?). The important thing though is, can you hold things in a room full of other Senior team members. I've also worked for great managers, and worked with great people on my team. Staff Software Engineer, Google Cloud Platforms, Senior Staff Software Engineer, Infrastructure, Principal Engineer, Developer Platform Systems, Senior Software Engineer, Mobile (Android), AR. Ben Harris - Interim Director - BT Group | LinkedIn It sounds trite, but it's true. This 360 review is confidential and you dont have to share it with your mgr unless you chose to do so. Within the comments, I hope to elicit advice that follows up on what I start here, and maybe even contradicts it. You will not know the difference. This is all well and good, but in 9years I've never worked in a group with a Senior IC (Windows, IE, .NET), though some architects. L7 equals L64 or L65. I suspect the former because there's no point in a manager telling you that you got promoted when you didn't. Oh, please. So a sub role at L61 = corp L63 and vice versa.So from a sub perspective:L58 and below are relatively junior roles where you have zero influence outside of meeting your commitmentsL59 -> L60 is a tougher jump. Also, go mine some of Dr. Brechner's Hard Code columns. The scope imcreases, the risk increases and the visbility increases. The last thing I would ever think about is what my boss thinks of me; I just don't care. I'd like to see a transition plan from you in 2 days". Get a free, personalized salary estimate based on today's job market. I work in MSN and we still have no way to know the levels of our peers. Is there much motivation to really fix Vista's perception problems?Machiavelli might note that intentionally leaving Vista's reputation in the toilet will make Windows 7 look all that much better when it comes out - allowing some of our VP's pride, ego's and bank balances to swell to truly epic proportions. I was in a group that was reorging constantly and there were frequent management changes, so it took all of the political skill I'd developed over the years to focus my GM on giving me that fucking promotion. If you're not there yet and your boss was asked that question by your skip-level-boss, what is your boss's answer? How? That is the guy to beat. My queries on any specific guidance would get no response or the response that youre a 62 and you should be able to figure it out. When it comes to where you actually rank and what you get paid that part is all that matters. L63 takes a bit longer but is also fast. If your boss is saying "Yes, ready for promo now" and your skip is saying "No, not now" well, why? I call B.S. After that I got 3 levels in 3 years and now at level 64. Be nice, and clear in your communications. Will there be budget? Often this is where a perceived negative attitude or lack of soft skills will hurt you the most.Your immediate boss can often look beyond that to the benefit you bring to the organization - mostly because it also directly benefits him or her. Harder for L64. Microsoft - Director, Level 65 at Microsoft | Glassdoor Ask yourself: what fraction of your job do you actually enjoy? Learn everything I can about the technology (I'm a PM and don't have a CS background so I work extra hard at this and ask lots of questions.)2. I also agree with the requests to have a discussion related to 65+.Anyway, I have seen a very healthy discussion going on here, and most of the thoughts I wanted to share have been mentioned. That is the guy to beat. Your analysis is very true, specially the part about owning the room and be regarded as the domain expert. Do a search for people in those groups in NYC area and check their status to see who is hiring. That's awesome. Staff Software Engineer, Google Cloud Platforms, Senior Staff Software Engineer, Infrastructure, Principal Engineer, Developer Platform Systems, Senior Software Engineer, Mobile (Android), AR. Great post and comments. When it comes to where you actually rank and what you get paid that part is all that matters. So, for those of you who are in orgs where it's 'easy' to get to L63 or L64 - think about transferring out BEFORE you get too high a level and paint yourself into a corner. .css-1odorsr{display:-webkit-inline-box;display:-webkit-inline-flex;display:-ms-inline-flexbox;display:inline-flex;-webkit-align-items:center;-webkit-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-items:center;font-weight:700;}.css-1ln5qhx{-webkit-text-decoration:none;text-decoration:none;display:-webkit-inline-box;display:-webkit-inline-flex;display:-ms-inline-flexbox;display:inline-flex;-webkit-align-items:center;-webkit-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-items:center;font-weight:700;}.css-1dmvvgc{margin:0;color:#0060b9;-webkit-text-decoration:none;text-decoration:none;display:-webkit-inline-box;display:-webkit-inline-flex;display:-ms-inline-flexbox;display:inline-flex;-webkit-align-items:center;-webkit-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-items:center;font-weight:700;}Get your salary negotiated .css-1npej63{-webkit-user-select:none;-moz-user-select:none;-ms-user-select:none;user-select:none;width:1em;height:1em;display:inline-block;fill:currentColor;-webkit-flex-shrink:0;-ms-flex-negative:0;flex-shrink:0;-webkit-transition:fill 200ms cubic-bezier(0.4, 0, 0.2, 1) 0ms;transition:fill 200ms cubic-bezier(0.4, 0, 0.2, 1) 0ms;font-size:1.25rem;margin-left:-4px;}or your resume reviewed by the real experts - recruiters who do it daily. Feedback is not detailed or actionable. Your response is private Was this worth your time? Are you ok with what you hear? Senior Director of Sales NEXT50 2022 - 6 Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates I am thrilled to announce that I started a new position as a Senior Director Of sales at Next50.. Andy Winskill - Digital Transformation | Senior Director - LinkedIn What to do?The remaining is either a) absorb into other org (say A)b) if A doesn't need testers, then VP will instruct them to find another position in 6 weeks. The downside to this view within the Microsoft culture is that you are always expected to keep climbing the ladder even if you are content with your current job and a solid performer in it. I work in MSN and we still have no way to know the levels of our peers. Chairman of the Board, Microsoft Corporation. Keep your mouth shut most of the time (i.e. I know devs who got there without doing anything substantial but their manager was nice and there was no competition.In short, Level 63 to me is not important and I really dont respect 63s unless they I've interacted with them.Level 65+ is another story and are devs who have the stuff almost always.- Someone at Level 62. As a L64 I find getting to 65 quite a wall. I've seen L65's who can't own a cardboard box, let alone a room.Well you know, don't go for them for advice! Heck, we would be lucky if many can do even that well. I started in 2001 @ L62. In short there are lot many ways to influence others and infect the best ones are not being a manager :). If you go looking for those problems though, you better be prepared to deliver. The estimated base pay is $243,438 per year. I made it to L63 in a year (I was probably under leveled when I arrived). :). The Job titles for this position are: Software Development Engineer SDE Will a L63 have direct reports and/or manage v-? Now read over your answer. Levels 57 and 58 are reserved for non-permanent employees and Levels 59 and 60 are reserved for New Graduates. Wow. This is a good list. The estimated additional pay is $257,304 per year. (1) Oh, please. Executive Vice President and Chief Marketing Officer. > Lots of very true points. right? Discussion: First off, I'm going to be hard-core about comments here. and I know there are still some out there but things have improved a lot in my view. You will not know the difference.Steve Steve Steve given the state of the company, are you sure you don't have anything else more urgent to do? I can vouch for the efficacy of this mantra.MS definitely does a good enough job on career progression and offering diverse options. Chong Eu Ong - Senior Information Technology Manager - LinkedIn Executing on what you have now at a high rate/quality level.2. When I was an IC, it was tough technical problems or simply critical problems that no one else wanted. 4. Unless you know for sure that your boss's answer is an immediate "Absolutely!" "You might be too smart or have ideas that come from somewhere outside of Redmond which makes you very dangerous and not Microsoft material. Things get thrown your way and you knock each and everyone of the challenges out of the park. Revise if needed. The conclusion: its price today! Show me you can do this and want to learn more and you'll be on my radar as a possibility.6. Like many technology companies, Microsoft uses levels to indicate seniority for employees, including engineers. Because, except on the rare occasion, Microsoft and your team isn't going to change. Impossible. This employer has claimed their Employer Profile and is engaged in the Glassdoor community. My boss even made mistakes. 8,000+ Senior Director Human Resources Jobs in United States - LinkedIn Years ago we had a dev on my team who was very high IQ and very driven, but was driving his lead nuts. then do you know what more you need to do? However L64 takes some time and L65 is very difficult. What an achievement! Know where you are in the stack and understand how you will rank higher next year.BTW, forgot to mention I was a manager for the second half of my career. What do you do when your manager is an absolute b***h, a disgrace in meetings with other teams and an embarrassment on her good days? Its, actually, quite a short list. Facebook, Go to company page I am offered a job at L65 and job offer has a title Director on it! Ahmed Muhsin - Senior Director of Sales - NEXT50 | LinkedIn So once again, a big part of your job is learning how to become a ninja at firguring out what your management wants from you -- even when they haven't articulated it in any kind of measurable way -- and then doing it. Or at least, more transparent feedback was communicated so you had a real idea of where your career was heading. Julien Belin - Senior Director Global Supply Chain - LinkedIn I also don't know if this is the first step towards a lay-off, but for now, it seems we'll have jobs for a few more months.Ugh, not good, not good at all. :)Then, over the next 2 years, I learned the magic of 65: it's not just about playing *well* with others, it's about making every team you work with great and helping them do their best work. If it is, awesome -- go do it, drive it to completion. My first year I thought for sure I would sit at L61 for another year, but to my surprise I was promoted to L62 without even a full FY under my belt. Then L64 took two years. What if you and your manager are at the same level L62. I am not saying the manager is trying to sabotage, but when push comes to shove will you get the impactful project. I've been 3.5 years at 62 and re-orged every year in mobile.Any ideas on how to carry greats results of one role into another through a re-org. Should I trust my manager or is this just one more of his demonstrations of poor management skills? L68 is partner, or you may see GM. My first year I thought for sure I would sit at L61 for another year, but to my surprise I was promoted to L62 without even a full FY under my belt. But my manager is communicating to me that it is very hard and I am likely to show patience for another year or two.I do not know how to confirm this without looking like whining. Seek out local critique before you approach people above you. I like such themes and everything that is connected to them. Obviously, this is advice that you may not apply during the current hiring freeze, but keep it on your mind for the future.- At times the focus on the level may not be the most important strategy in the long term. In this testing times what will motivate the mgr to put you ahead of him/hers? I basically lost 5 years of growth due to a bad manager and my own unwillingness to own my career. Director of Business Development for ATALIAN Global Services, in a senior leadership role based in Singapore driving sustainable growth in Asia. In the beginning, I volunteered for these tough areas that no one else wanted and over time, my brand became the fix it guy. It's an excellent product. What I've learned is be very, very specific on your commits and accountabilites. When someone else is waiting on you for something, don't be the reason they can't get their shit done.4. How do you ensure there is no conflict of interest. The job is the same, just the levelling differs. The job level for Technical Fellow starts at 80 and goes beyond. If you do not market yourself well, even if you are a superstar here at MSFT, your achievements might just go unrecognized (or they might be selectively recognized). MS is a carrot and stick culture with some heavy emphasis on stick. And do you anticipate what happened when I made the next move to Dev Manager position? But anyway, EOF for that angle. Its performance is compromised by your pandering to the RIAA and MPAA. Of course everyone wants to be promoted every review, so don't bother asking right after your last promotion.What matters most is that you are doing what your manager thinks deserves to get you promoted. When (if) you are then promoted to 62, you are not expected to continue performing at a level 62 level, but rather a level 63 level.The reason that you have to perform at a new level before reaching it is to avoid the Peter Principle, being people promoted up to their level of incompetence. By doing this they are short circuiting the feedback loop and thereby preventing themselves from improving. All of us have been asked to move to India by our parent company. Directors & Officers - microsoft.com Senior-level Marketing Executive with experience in the consumer and B2B industry. Just ensure that you do the absolute best in whatever is thrown at you and promotion will take care of itself. Related Searches:All Senior Director Salaries|All Microsoft Salaries. In fact, every boss I've had has told me that I was the most frustrating employee they've ever had, mostly because I ignore half the things they ask me to doAnyhow, here's my advice: do a good job.That's it. Eng, Go to company page I'm a Level 64 in Office and I agree that the Level Compression puts a crimp in promotion velocity in Office. What is the average promotion velocity for non-technical fields? @No! You have to be extremely faithful to your management while at the same time carefuly growing your broad influence to your manager's piers. This is where I agree with Mini regarding taking MSFT back to the good ol' lean, mean, and efficient company we enjoyed. It going to be more about survival in the current business climate. I guess they are fallible humans too. I thought what I did was valuable but in the end, it wasn't.The Microsoft up or out policy is the prime directive. I also don't know if this is the first step towards a lay-off, but for now, it seems we'll have jobs for a few more months.Ugh, not good, not good at all>I am a partner. Your Recently Promoted L63 Peers: let's say you have at least one peer that in the past year or so has been promoted to L63. For technical and management track, the job level start from 57 and continues till 80. Like any organization MS has its own unique culture and cannot possibly be all things for all people. Up to that point the "what" you accomplish can get you pretty far and you get some wiggly room on the how. Leverage your professional network, and get hired. I would love to be above 60much less 63. The position entails teaching an introductory physics sequence, upper-level physics courses, and related labs. The first levels came quickly with some sticking around 64 and 65 (half my career).I have always taken on and fixed problem areas that no one else wants to take on. Specifically, that is a tendency to try and do everything themselves, taking too much individual accountability as opposed to building a v-team across orgs etc etc.Most managers in Microsoft - in my personal experieince - are competent managers. So he is looking to become partner this year on the team's work. Don't give up.I'd appreciate it if you'd do a similar post on the 65 to 65 transition. It took him at least two months to integrate. I've seen some extremely senior developers propose solutions to problems, but be totally unconvincing. Entry level (4,718) Associate (1,976) Mid-Senior level (40,085) Ask any old mainframer what it was like to be an IBM customer back in the day. I'd like to hear some more experiences from MCS. And I'm hiring, yes, in this economy. That is why to get to L65 a VP level person must know your work and be able to recall your name without help. Amazon Levels are all about perception.I know devs who are underlevelled and devs who are over-levelled. HTH. What does that look like in your mind? If you have a good manager he/she will ensure the relevant peers know all about it. Say B.In a perfect case, B will have 10 devs to transfer to A but when that happen B will be left with 5 testers and 2 PMs. Shock and awe awaits. in my previous post i should have included a link to our internal mentor site for finding a mentor. Until you can be honest with yourself (and it's not fun, trust me) you will be stuck doing what you're doing and your complaining will be the glue keeping you there. If you're saying "Ah, dude, my boss is in the way of my promotion" then all I have to say is "Duuuude, your boss is the way to your promotion." How you perform in interview is going to matter on whether you get proper mapping or not. Are you sure you know what your boss wants? If you're going into that comfort zone of complaining about politics and butt-kissing and favorites, do me this favor: hold your right palm up, nice and flat like you're about to be sworn in to testify in a trial, and now extend your right arm out nice and wide, and then quickly swing your right arm around the front of you in a nice arc that ends with the flat of your right hand quickly connecting to the left side of your face for a hard, resounding slap. What advice do you need? Mgmt, MSFT levels: CEO > VP > Partner(Director) > Principal > Sr. Eng > Eng 2 > Eng 1. (2): Wow, thanks for the early + great feedback. Its a bit like the famous phrase about the definition of obscenity. And we have the budget for it. It's a matter of human nature for most people not to want someone else to pass them up. VP has to find the 10 devs from some other less attractive project. He/she and you should know exactly what you need to do to get to the next level. By persist, I do not mean being happy to be at the same <63 level for 3+ years for exmaple. Get FREE domain for 1st year and build your brand new site. )Those are only 3 of many 'soft skills' that will hold most people, even brilliant people, back.Has every level X mastered these skills? Contributed and exceeded in two roles - getting G-Star, then moved to another team with clear headroom and again, exceeded all commits and moved to L64. Same here. Find the right team and manager.2. Thanks.Sorry mini -- I meant the content of the comment I referenced, not the content of your original post (which I'm in violent agreement with). Averages based on self-reported salaries. Vendors are also having it bad. It is a dream company for many people. * One final important thought that hasn't been mentioned here and that is very dear to my heart is one that is not only specific to 63 but also to 65+, 66+, and 67+, and it is about moving up when you are a female at MSFT. Why cannot we have our address title reflect our level as everybody else in the company?Not giving quite as snide a response as the previous posterAsk your management. Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer. If your boss isn't banging his fist on the table for you, it won't happen. B.Sc in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Electronics, M.Sc in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Electronics, PhD in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Electronics, Designing and implementing Software and Hardware Systems, Benchmarking and validating Software and Hardware Systems, Developing innovative solutions and publish papers and patents, Managing teams and keep track of progress, Predicting market trends, identifying market risks, Identifying future opportunities, preparing company roadmap. So no time like the present to practice where you can. For example, see http://www.intropsych.com/ch07_cognition/learning_curve.html. at I'm an SDE, so a large part of my time in the product cycle is spent fixing bugs. It's just that the scope is different. Specifically, what did they accomplish, and what contributions do you see them doing to justify their promotion? Senior->principal->partner are the level bands, 63/64->65/66/67, 68/69/70. It can help you identify blind spots which may be holding you back.7. Kiran R, Ph.D. - Partner GM, DSaaS (Data Sciences-as-a - LinkedIn Great post! According to Glassdoor, senior software engineers at Google can earn $172,818 as their average base pay, along with average cash bonuses of $30,921, stock bonuses of $104,769, and some other cash incentives for a total of $201,000. At this point many people will ask how can I influence others if Im not their manager? Biggest key for me was knowing when to leave a bad management situation and team. I'm not even thinking about level 63 at this point. I'm now past my time that I can recruit away from MSFT after leaving some time ago. Add your salary anonymously in less than 60 seconds and continue exploring all the data. If you want the longest Microsoft career possible, why advance any faster than you have to. because I have never seen the above formula fail with me in many years or people I know (a sample set of hundreds of person-years), I would agree, right now, level is deflated, 64, and 65 are real barriers, and salary level expand as well. I joined Microsoft at L63 in Office and found it to be a freakshow of people NOT working together but understanding that no team work was better for getting a promotion FAR better than I did having come from the Valley.